George Yabu & Glenn Pushelberg on 45 Years of Design, Curiosity, and Creating Soulful Spaces
George Yabu & Glenn Pushelberg reveal 45 years of design wisdom: why curiosity matters, how imperfection creates soul, and what the industry is avoiding.
In one of the most candid conversations MINDED has recorded, George Yabu and Glenn Pushelberg reflect on 45 years building one of the world's most influential interior design firms - and they're not holding back about what's broken in the industry.
Recipients of the Order of Canada (equivalent to the U.S. Presidential Medal of Freedom), and the Créateurs Design Awards the duo behind Yabu Pushelberg have shaped hospitality design for nearly five decades. Their projects span luxury hotels, high-end retail flagships, museum installations, and aviation interiors that set new standards in spatial experience. But more than their portfolio, it's their philosophy that has influenced generations: empathetic design that makes people more human, not just comfortable.
The Industry Problems They're Calling Out
George and Glenn don't sugarcoat their critique of Milan Design Week's evolution. Fashion brands with massive budgets have consumed media oxygen, leaving furniture and product design underrepresented. "Media won't cover what's already been covered," Glenn explains, creating a visibility problem for returning exhibitors no matter how innovative their work. This echoes similar challenges we explored with Juliana Lima Vasconcelos regarding her Lavazza installation at Milan Design Week, where she navigated the complexities of standing out in an oversaturated design landscape.
More concerning, furniture design is adopting fashion's destructive fast cycles. Products are about "the mood of a brand, not the uniqueness of the product," George observes. This styling-over-substance approach undermines the thoughtful development process that great design requires.
The Yabu Pushelberg Philosophy
What keeps them curious after 45 years? A commitment to never repeating themselves. "Curiosity is never wanting to repeat yourself," Glenn defines it. This drives them to collaborate with artists, craftspeople, and makers rather than controlling every detail - embracing "imperfect perfection" over sterile minimalism. Their collaborative approach to design shares common ground with other innovative studios we've featured, where partnership with makers creates more authentic outcomes.
Their approach is deeply rooted in George's Buddhist upbringing, though he didn't realize its influence for years. "The world is wonky," he explains. "We take every chance to make things balanced through empathetic design." This philosophy asks a fundamental question: does design make people more human, or just comfortable?
Crown Shy: Nature's Lesson in Empathy
One of the episode's most memorable moments explores "Crown Shy" - a phenomenon where trees avoid overlapping their canopies, giving each other space to grow. Their roots also communicate underground. George uses this botanical behavior as a metaphor for human empathy and respect. "There's empathy in nature," he notes. "It's an interesting analogy for what should happen in human relationships today."
Values Over Profit
Yabu Pushelberg eliminated time sheets years ago, choosing to work on trust. They've mentored over 30 design studios that have spun off from their firm - a family tree they continue to nurture. "Once you focus on business, you're screwed," Glenn advises young designers. "Focus on your craft."
Their commitment to sustainable materials and responsible design practices aligns with the broader movement in architecture and interiors toward environmental consciousness. They don't design for Instagram moments. "We want people to come back and discover something they didn't see last time," Glenn explains - creating layers of experience rather than exhausting a space in one photograph.
Advice for the Next Generation
Their message to design students: forget business initially, focus on craft. Their own first year of design school forbade designing anything - instead exploring materiality through wood shop, metal shop, glass work. "Undo your preconceptions, start with a blank canvas." This philosophy of material exploration and hands-on learning resonates with conversations we've had with architects like Lionel Ohayon, who emphasizes the importance of understanding craft and construction in creating meaningful architecture.
And when meeting potential employers? "Never ask about salary before showing passion for the work. Show me your curiosity, your energy, your commitment - then we'll talk about money."
This conversation captures what 45 years of leading by example sounds like. George and Glenn understand their obligation as Order of Canada recipients and industry leaders: show your true self, encourage others to be their true selves, and prove that values-driven design can not only survive - it can thrive.
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FAQ
What is empathetic design according to Yabu Pushelberg?
Empathetic design creates spaces that engage human emotion and make people feel more human, not just comfortable. According to George Yabu and Glenn Pushelberg, it means designing environments where visitors have positive engagement beyond the first visual impression - spaces that slow people down, make them want to return, and discover new layers each time. It's rooted in Buddhist principles of balance and creating experiences that connect people universally through beauty, joy, mystery, and sensuality rather than just functional comfort or Instagram-worthy moments.
How do George Yabu and Glenn Pushelberg approach the creative process?
Yabu Pushelberg uses 'Shrek mode'- a French term where the team locks themselves in a room for half a day or full day to allow messiness, sparring of ideas, and free-for-all creativity. They work best in teams, challenging each other to justify design decisions rather than being isolated in individual thinking. This process allows for screwed-up ideas to be explored openly, with the spark of collaboration leading to breakthrough concepts. They emphasize that you never know where ideas come from, believing inspiration exists everywhere in the world, but it requires space for chaos and team energy to discover it.
What's the difference between fashion design cycles and furniture design according to Yabu Pushelberg?
Fashion operates on spring-summer-fall-winter cycles with rapid turnover, while furniture design traditionally took six months to a year for prototyping, another year for refinement after launching at shows like Salone del Mobile, before reaching market. However, Yabu Pushelberg criticizes how furniture design is now following fashion's destructive fast cycle, resulting in more styling and less original thought. Fashion companies have even invaded Milan Design Week, booking major venues and overwhelming furniture presentations. This acceleration compromises the level of creativity and process needed for maximum return, reducing furniture to trend-following rather than unique, enduring products with depth.
What advice do Yabu Pushelberg give to young designers starting their careers?
Focus on your craft, not business or money. Yabu Pushelberg emphasizes that once you focus on business, you're compromised. They recommend staying curious, never repeating yourself, and working in teams to spark ideas. Young designers should explore materiality first - as they did in design school with wood shop, metal shop, glass - before designing anything. The path of working for a large firm versus going solo depends on defining your own happiness from within. Most importantly, don't ask about salary first (as one Parsons student did)—lead with passion for the work. They've mentored over 30 studios that spun off from their firm, proving that building reputation through great craft brings opportunities.
Transcript
Yuri: How lovely to have both of you with us today. How are you?
George: It is a pleasure to be here. A delight.
Glenn: Great to be here. We are in a good mood.
Yuri: I will jump straight in. The goal is an honest and open conversation about life, design, and whatever else comes our way. What do you think design is currently avoiding?
George: Design is not a pure and unconstrained art form. There is always a patron, a client, a context. That does not make it less creative, but it changes the process. Lately I feel the industry is avoiding true original thought.
Glenn: In product and furniture design the cycle feels like fashion. Faster styling and less depth. There is a flood of images and the pace pushes surface over substance. In the seventies to nineties uniqueness sold the product. Now it is the mood of the brand.
George: The digital world accelerates everything. We spoke with the president of Salone del Mobile. Furniture is starting to follow fashion speed, yet real products need time. Prototypes, feedback, revisions, another year to refine. Rushing compromises creativity and value.
Glenn: During Milan Design Week large fashion activations can take massive spaces. Furniture companies cannot compete with that scale, so good work gets lost in the noise.
Yuri: Many designers say Milan is so big it is hard to stand out. Fashion brands consume the oxygen and media attention.
Glenn: You can make a beautiful object, but if it is lost among many, it has no chance to grow and endure. These pieces are our children. We want them to have a life.
George: Media often chases what is new and repeats the same angles. Every object has multiple stories. How it was made, the choices behind it. That nuance gets ignored.
Yuri: With media shrinking there is less room for challenging and diverse conversations.
Glenn: So we have started telling our own stories. After the pandemic we revisited our Toronto house. We kept it intact, updated it for how we live now, and repurposed materials. We pitched it directly to a magazine because the narrative mattered. Relevance, longevity, resourcefulness.
George: We reused a bog oak veneer we had for twenty years, reworked doors, and made the space more livable. It is a lab for ideas, not a disposable set.
Yuri: Is it important for designers to control their own narrative?
Glenn: Yes. Designing for yourself, whether home or studio or object, forces you to ask who you are and what you believe. It is harder, but more authentic.
George: It is a laboratory for experimentation. You own the conditions and you learn more.
Yuri: You have worked across interiors, architecture, hospitality, licensing, and collaborations. Are you exploring new areas or doubling down on what you do?
George: We are curious about new typologies.
Glenn: Retreats in Africa. Portable structures. Deeper work with sustainable materials. Museum and gallery projects with tighter constraints, which often create more potential. Aviation too. Hotels are wonderfully complex, but we are not interested in repeating formulas.
George: Our curiosity is intact after decades. It drives us toward new problems to solve. Marine, museum planning, areas with tough constraints where we can question assumptions.
Glenn: Sustainability can be a hard sell if you frame it as a cost. We prefer to specify the best material or process and note that it is also responsible and similarly priced. Clients say yes for the right reasons.
Yuri: You keep returning to problem solving and curiosity. Are those essential traits, and can you develop them?
George: Yes. Our most rewarding projects happen when clients let us into their world and trust us. The more we understand how they think and how their industry works, the better our solutions.
Glenn: Curiosity means never repeating yourself. A story. We met a tiny Finnish pine furniture company in Copenhagen and said we want to design for you. They were surprised. Working with a single material is a beautiful challenge. You can make it dense and grounded or thin and ethereal. Doing that poetically is hard and exciting.
George: Their new creative director had just left a major tech company and shared our curiosity. That alignment is everything.
Yuri: Any technologies, materials, or evolutions you are excited about?
George: Connecting people. Sometimes the right thing is not us doing the work. It is introducing a talented designer to the right partner and letting a better collaboration happen.
Glenn: We have nurtured a family tree of designers. More than thirty studios spun out of our practice. We mentor, share projects, and stay connected. Everything comes full circle.
George: After forty five years the world feels small. You can make meaningful connections. The right hotel group for a developer. The right restaurateur. The right ingredients to make a project unique. Avoid five star formulas. Make a different cake.
Glenn: The ones who thrive do not follow trends. They follow their heart and soul.
Yuri: Has the industry gotten better or worse? Is there a path to a better future?
Glenn: Hone your craft. Make projects that resonate with users. Build reputation by creating unique work. Smart clients will pay for that.
George: Collaborations should add value, not just hype. For example we turned a successful indoor chair into an outdoor version by pairing with an outdoor specialist. We borrowed proven technology for longevity, not just a one season release.
Glenn: On the flip side we have seen young studios diminish themselves by trading on someone else’s halo or by chasing fees. Define yourself. We started with no baggage. We were terrible at business at first, but passion led and we learned the rest.
George: Sometimes you do not make money on a project. Focus on doing great work and refine your craft. If you focus only on business you lose your spirit.
Yuri: For graduates. Join a big firm or go solo?
Glenn: Happiness is personal. Big studios offer breadth. Small studios offer intimacy and responsibility. Both paths can work.
George: In school we had a full year of material exploration before designing anything. Wood, metal, plastics, photography. Unlearning preconceptions matters. Also be curious first, not what is the salary.
Yuri: Design is often about control. Where do you let chaos win?
George: In the studio with teams. When ideas are too compelling to ignore we hold a charrette. Close the door, let it get messy, keep it open, and sort it out together.
Glenn: That sparring is where sparks fly. We are perfectionists, but the right imperfection adds soul. Early on an artist friend wrapped a thin wood veneer around a lamp a week before opening. Perfectly imperfect and better than a so called perfect object.
George: Working with artists, makers, and craftsmen adds a human layer. Over perfect interiors become soulless.
Glenn: Great environments balance proportion, scale, materiality, and lighting to create mood and emotion. Many airports are efficient but soulless.
Yuri: You have won many awards. What do they mean to you now?
Glenn: Leadership brings an obligation. Show your true self and encourage others to do the same. After receiving the Order of Canada we stood next to a stem cell researcher and thought we need to step up. Philanthropy, giving back, modeling positive ways forward, involving suppliers and partners.
George: The accolades help people discover our work, but the point is to tell the real story and lead by example.
Yuri: We met in Shanghai in twenty eighteen. You seem grounded, professionally and spiritually. Are you spiritual?
George: I grew up in a Buddhist household. Only later did I realize how much that informed me. Seeking balance and empathy in a wonky world. When we design a cafe I want someone to feel something and come back without knowing why.
Glenn: We do not design for Instagram moments. We want places people return to and notice new layers each time. Beyond first impressions.
George: The pressure to perform a brand is strong, but if you only chase the dazzling selfie it is empty after that first image.
Glenn: Our values shape our studio. Generosity, kindness, acting like a family. We removed time sheets years ago. We work on trust and clear expectations. We go to work because we enjoy the people and the energy.
Yuri: Does design make people more human or just more comfortable?
George: I hope more human. Comfort is a state of mind. Humanity is the goal.
Glenn: We live in a world of separation. Done well, design resonates with heart and soul and brings people together. Beauty, joy, mystery, and sensuality are universal.
Yuri: Before we wrap. Recommend a book, something to watch, something to listen to, and a guest we should invite.
Glenn: Book. A novel by Ocean Vuong about hardship, generosity, and resilience. Beautifully written and a reminder to hope for the future.
George: A book I was gifted about how trees communicate. Crown shyness, how trees give each other space, how roots talk. An empathy metaphor for humans. I love that idea.
Glenn: To watch. We often catch things on flights, but we did laugh at the new South Park. In a world of tamped down messages they still take risks.
George: Guests. Someone unexpected and authentic. People who know who they are.
Glenn: Two ideas. Carla Sozzani, who helped shape design culture in fashion and has a brave and softer side. And a long shot, Tony Mansfield from Jackson Heights, who lived many lives through New York art and nightlife and kept an amazing archive. A fascinating perspective.
Yuri: Thank you for this conversation. We went beyond career into life, feelings, and values. If not in Paris, come to Austin for barbecue and we will continue in person.
George: Austin is on the list. So good to see you again. Thank you for the opportunity.
Glenn: Thanks. Bye.
Key Topics Covered
Empathetic Design Philosophy - Making people more human, not just comfortable
Milan Design Week Critique - Fashion's dominance and media coverage challenges
Crown Shy Principle - Nature's lesson in giving space and practicing empathy
Buddhist Influence - How spirituality shapes design decisions
Design Education - Material exploration before design execution
Eliminating Time Sheets - Working on trust instead of billable hours
Mentoring 30+ Studios - Creating a family tree of design talent
Imperfect Perfection - Why collaboration with makers creates soul
Anti-Instagram Philosophy - Designing for discovery, not documentation
Curiosity-Driven Practice - Never repeating yourself across 45 years
Values Over Profit - How generosity sustains a creative practice
Sustainable Materials - Certified wood, responsible sourcing, emerging composites
Fashion vs Furniture Cycles - Why design needs its own timeline
The Business Trap - Advice to young designers: focus on craft first
Standout Quotes
"Design is not a pure form of creativity. There's a patron involved. But that doesn't mean it's not creative."
"Products today are about what's the mood of a brand, not the uniqueness of the product."
"Curiosity is never wanting to repeat yourself. I'm curious about the next thing."
"When things are too perfectly linear, they become soulless. That's the problem with airports."
"We work on trust with people. We got rid of time sheets years ago."
"The world is wonky. We make things balanced through empathetic design."
"We don't design for Instagram moments. We want people to come back and discover something new."
"Does design make people more human or just comfortable? I hope it makes them more human."
"Trees practice Crown Shy - they give each other space. There's empathy in nature."
"Once you focus on business, you're screwed. Focus on your craft."
Related Episodes You Might Enjoy
Explore more conversations about design philosophy, collaboration, and sustainability:
Creative Collaboration and Sustainability in Design: Lessons from PlayLab - Discover how collaborative design practices and sustainable thinking shape innovative studios
Sebastian Behmann: Pioneering Sustainable Urban Architecture and Design Innovation - Explore sustainable approaches to urban architecture and material innovation
From Models to Masterplans: Lionel Ohayon's Architectural Journey - Learn about the importance of craft, construction knowledge, and hands-on material understanding in architecture
Juliana Lima Vasconcelos on Creating Milan Design Week's Lavazza Installation - Another perspective on navigating Milan Design Week and creating multisensory experiential design
George Yabu and Glenn Pushelberg
Co-Founders, Yabu Pushelberg
George Yabu and Glenn Pushelberg are the co-founders of Yabu Pushelberg, one of the world's most influential interior design and architecture firms. For 45 years, they have shaped the hospitality, retail, and residential design landscape with projects spanning hotels, restaurants, museums, furniture collections, and aviation interiors. Recipients of the Order of Canada (equivalent to the U.S. Presidential Medal), they are known for their philosophy of empathetic design, perfectionism balanced with soul, and commitment to mentoring the next generation of designers. With over 30 design studios having spun off from their firm, they have created a family tree of creative talent. Their work emphasizes materiality, craftsmanship, and creating spaces that engage human emotion beyond visual beauty. Based in Toronto with projects worldwide, they advocate for curiosity-driven practice, collaboration with artists and makers, and rejecting the fast-fashion approach that has infiltrated furniture and interior design.
MINDED Podcast
The Leading Platform in Art, Design, Culture and Innovation.
MINDED is a global platform at the intersection of art, design, culture, and tech-driven innovation. Hosted by Yuri Xavier, MINDED explores how today’s leading architects, artists, designers, cultural icons, and entrepreneurs are shaping the future. With 300K+ YouTube subscribers and distribution across all major podcast platforms, MINDED is recognized as a top source for cultural insight and creative leadership. We create original content, video series, and live conversations in collaboration with forward-thinking partners whose ethos aligns with ours. MINDED is more than a podcast — it’s a cultural intelligence platform helping the world’s most visionary creators amplify their voice and influence.
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